Today, Carolina Journal Radio’s Mitch Kokai discusses state ethics reform with Bob Phillips, director of North Carolina Common Cause and one of the leaders of the North Carolina Coalition for Lobbying and Government Reform. (Go to http://www.carolinajournal.com/cjradio/ to find a station near you or to learn about the weekly CJ Radio podcast.)
Kokai: So, first of all, let’s look at the 2007 session. Just how good was this year’s session for reform measures dealing with ethics, lobbying, government reform?
Phillips: More progress was made. I mean, it didn’t match the scale of the year before, just because that was really a very momentous year when a lot of things needed to be done. They did make some progress. Certainly, the action came at the very end, and we were a little worried about it. But this is a work in progress, as Governor Easley mentioned, and so we were pleased, ultimately, with what they did.
Kokai: The governor signed into law three separate bills. What are the changes that were made?
Phillips: The biggest change is that they now have open state ethics hearings. These were closed in last year’s legislation. Now you have open ethics hearings for hearings that deal with legislators, as well as state employees, and that is very important. We felt that transparency was absolutely needed. It had been a tradition in North Carolina. It’s what the surrounding states have as well. So those are now open, and that’s a good thing. Most of the other changes dealt with technical kinds of things. For instance, when [N.C. Senate] President Pro Tem [Marc] Basnight’s wife died, lobbyists were being told they couldn’t send flowers and cards; a bereavement exception was made. Some other kind of common sense exceptions were made as well. So, in general, again, it was a pretty good session for lobbying and ethics.
Kokai: Based on what you would have liked to have seen happen when the session started, what are some of the things that still need to be done?
Phillips: A couple of big things, again looking at that relationship that lobbyists and lawmakers have. We still allow lobbyists to raise unlimited amounts of campaign money for candidates, and that’s a huge advantage when you are a lobbyist, and you are able to raise tens of thousands of dollars for a candidate and then lobby them. That’s just a conflict in our mind, and we would like to see the legislature either curb it or cut it out all together, as other states have. Another area is stopping political parties from being able to provide unlimited amounts of money to candidates as well. This allows anyone to write a large check of any amount to a political party, and the political party can then simply pass it on to the candidate. It provides, sometimes, in some districts, more money coming from the outside than what a candidate can actually raise. And, again, that is just not healthy for the system. Those are two big areas that we are going to be pushing for the legislature to address in the ’08 session.
Kokai: One of the reasons that ethics and government lobbying reform came to the floor in the General Assembly was the situation surrounding Jim Black. Just how much of an impact did the scandal of the former [N.C.] House Speaker have to do with what has been passed so far?
Phillips: A lot. I mean, obviously, we had started before this scandal erupted. And the legislature had done some good things, and then it just put everything in rapid motion. And, in some ways, they might have gone too quickly without a lot of thought to it. But, at the same time, no question — the scandal drove the reforms. It is continuing to keep it on the front burner. Of course, as Speaker Black is now in prison, and people want to put it behind them, it is up to us, in this coalition that we have, to try to continue to challenge lawmakers to push and make tougher laws and reform in ethics.
Kokai: Speaker Black is now gone from North Carolina, in federal prison. Do the folks who are involved in the coalition worry that with Speaker Black not front and center in people’s minds, that it will be harder to get further reforms approved?
Phillips: It’s always a tougher challenge because, again, lawmakers tend to feel like we’ve dealt with it — we don’t need to do anymore. But this investigation — about a lobbyist who gave a tremendous amount of money to the Speaker — [w]e don’t like to see this. Yet, it will help push this need for more reforms forward, and it’s up to us to continue, as I said, to challenge the legislature to do that.
Kokai: You mentioned that loan, a $500,000 loan, to Speaker Black back in 2000 from the lobbyist, Don Beason. Do you think that that particular transaction will lead to some type of legislation in 2008?
Phillips: I think it will. Again, we do prohibit lobbyists from making loans to legislators, but I think it also helps us look at that relationship that a lobbyist and a lawmaker has. And the focus should be on information only, and hopefully, from this information about this loan, it will sharpen that focus that we need to have to try to make lobbying just what it really is supposed to be about — and that is providing information, not meals, not gifts, not loans, not raising campaign cash.
Kokai: Bob, you mentioned ’08. What is your outlook for 2008? Is it still going to be a good year to try to get some reforms approved?
Phillips: I think it really is. I mean, unfortunately, democracy has taken a black eye in North Carolina because of all of this. And I think that legislators, in general, are concerned. They want to do things to restore public confidence, and I think that they are willing to work with those of us in the coalition to try to see what else can be done. And we do have some things we’ll be asking them to do, obviously. So I do feel that ’08 is another session ripe for positive changes.
Kokai: Remind us, Bob, why it’s important to make these changes. Some people look at North Carolina government and say it doesn’t matter what rules you approve — some of them are going to be doing bad things because they are bad apples. Why is it important that we do change the rules and have the best rules in place as possible?
Phillips: Well, two things really. One, of course, is when laws, or ethics laws, or what have you are broken, the kinds of bad laws, bad policies that might come of it, the unfair advantages that special interests may get because of it, of course, is wrong. But the other thing, and this is I think just as disturbing, is just the image and the perception that people have — particularly young people — regarding our government. We’ve got to make sure that people have confidence in their elected leaders and democracy and what happens in Raleigh. And, once upon a time, North Carolina was known as the good government state. It’s hard to imagine that today, but I think that, by and large, we have good people who are serving us, and we need to make sure we have good, strong, tough laws that people have confidence in. And certainly, to prevent anything like what we’ve seen in the last couple of years from ever happening again.