Big changes are ahead for the University of North Carolina system, at least in the top leadership position. UNC President Erskine Bowles has announced his plans to retire. Jane Shaw, president of the John W. Pope Center for Higher Education Policy, discussed the issue with Donna Martinez for Carolina Journal Radio. (Click here to find a station near you or to learn about the weekly CJ Radio podcast.)
Martinez: You follow the UNC system very closely. Were you surprised at Mr. Bowles’ announcement?
Shaw: I was a little bit surprised that he made it exactly when he did, but actually, a few months before when I was interviewing him, he made clear that he had planned to stay five years and he wasn’t going to continue [after] that. And that five years would be December 2010. So he’s going to carry out the five years if they don’t find a replacement sooner. So I was surprised by the timing, but I knew that he wasn’t going to stay too long.
Martinez: Of course, the news also broke just several days after his announcement that it looks as if President Obama wants Mr. Bowles to head back to Washington, D.C. and be part of a fiscal commission taking a look at the government’s deficit and debt. Do you think there are any other reasons why he might be leaving at this time?
Shaw: Here’s my guess. I believe that ever since the Obama administration took power, he really probably was looking towards Washington, D.C. It was an opportunity for him; they need talented people and my guess is that that really changed his attitude about UNC. The other thing is, you could kind of tell over the past few years that this job is rather wearing. It’s a very unwieldy system. You have 17 campuses in the UNC system. Each one of them is different from one another. And it’s very political; there’s lots of pettiness on campuses. I think he got really tired and perhaps he also felt he had accomplished a number of things. But I think he was tired.
Martinez: It always seems like there is something going on at at least one of the university campuses that he gets embroiled in, so it’s definitely a pressure-filled job. Jane, it appears, though, that you would like to see him stay, rather than go. Why?
Shaw: Yes. I think we would actually be much better off if he gave a few more years to the job. I don’t expect him to do that; it’s pretty clear, obviously, but here’s the thing. Five years is enough time to kind of find out where the bodies are buried, what the problems are, and to learn a little bit. But to actually implement the things that you’ve learned, it’s really not enough time. I’ve seen Erskine Bowles’ views somewhat change over the years. Let me give you an example. When he started out in his inaugural speech in 2006, he talked about the need for more teachers — and he also mentioned they needed to be better — but it was more teachers in North Carolina being produced by education schools. Well, over the next year or two, it became clear that North Carolina does not have a big shortage of teachers. It does have a shortage of good teachers. And Bowles began to implement a study that is kind of — it’s called a longitudinal study, in which you try to find out which teachers have the best outcomes with students and then where they came from, which schools are producing the best teachers. Well, that study isn’t even over. It’s in one phase of the research, the final phase of the research. But actually implementing something is going to take more than one year, which is at most all that he has left, and not even that. So I feel that he would be — the university system would be much better off if he could have stayed longer.
Martinez: Let’s talk more about his legacy. In terms of academics and also administration and fiscal issues, was he respected by his chancellors and the faculty at the universities?
Shaw: Yes. I think everybody respected him. I think they recognize that he is a person of integrity. He welcomed criticism. The Pope Center has certainly criticized him, but he even told Jay Schalin, our reporter, “Don’t pull your punches. I want to know what the problems are. Let me know.” And he was definitely a person who earned a lot of respect.
Martinez: He also raised the ire a bit at times, particularly when he got into issues of administration. Isn’t it fair to say that when he said, look folks, you need to perhaps cut back on the number of administrators, that some people did not react well to that?
Shaw: That’s right. And I remember at that point, even though it was known that he was probably going to only stay the five years, he said, “Look, don’t just wait me out. I want to see the changes here.” And he did an excellent job of implementing the cost cutting that was immediately necessary. He was pretty efficient at that.
Martinez: Is there anything that you consider a particular success of his, during his tenure?
Shaw: Yes. I think he made the place, this whole university setting, a well-organized machine that is going to have fewer scandals in the future, I think. He has had these fires to put out, such as at N.C. State, but most of those issues started before his watch.
Martinez: Let’s talk a little bit more about the N.C. State situation. That involves the former First Lady of North Carolina, Mary Easley. Now, she had been hired before he took his position, correct?
Shaw: That’s right. The controversy that came out later was largely based on how she was hired in 2005. But then, the reason that it became controversial was because in 2008, she received a very hefty raise. And at that point, some people feel that Bowles didn’t act aggressively enough to deal with it. I know he did immediately say, well, for that amount of money, we have to get more than just a seminar series. But I think as the events unfolded, maybe he was a little bit slow to react.
Martinez: So what will UNC do now? Is president of the system considered a plum job?
Shaw: I think it is. UNC does have a good reputation, although I think anybody who comes here realizes that it’s such a diverse set of institutions that it’s not an easy job. I think that’s the thing that will make some people hold back.
Martinez: What do you believe the [UNC] Board of Governors should look for in the next president?
Shaw: I think someone who can carry on the professionalism that Erskine Bowles has brought to it. And I will say that the chairman right now, Hannah Gage, who is a businesswoman essentially, is very capable. And so I think there’s hope, but the chances are, it will be very, very difficult to find someone with the set of skills that Erskine Bowles has.
Martinez: And in fact, he has such an interesting background. He’s done a lot of different things — business person, worked in the White House, et cetera. Should the president of the system have any education-specific background?
Shaw: I kind of don’t think so. I think his success reveals that you don’t need to have a Ph.D. in an obscure topic in order to be a good manager. And I think that is an important part of that job.
Martinez: And finally Jane, it appears that whenever these big jobs come up, there’s always a controversy over whether the search and the finalist list should be public, or whether these folks deserve privacy. What’s your take?
Shaw: I think this is an attractive enough job so that at least the finalists should be known and they should be willing to be known. So I’d say at least the final round of the search should be open, maybe not the beginnings of it.